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This week, on Just on the Edge of Silly:
It’s finally time for us to dive into the Bourniverse. In what we assume was the inspiration for Letty in Furious 6, Matt Damon has amnesia so bad that when he remembers something, he winces in pain. Also, his superpowers include spotting a guy who is 215 pounds and knows how to handle himself, which is amazing.
Greg goes deep into how this messy production produces a stone cold classic, and Joe tries to figure out if this is in fact a GREAT GREAT MOVIE… The highest honor a movie can receive.
The TV event closer to the book:
Note: This transcript has been auto-generated, so… You know… It’s not our fault.
Joe: Greg in the movie we just watched. The main character is found floating in the Mediterranean Sea after being shot two times, with no memory of what happened and how he got there, and then must go on a series of adventures to try to track down who he is while fighting nefarious government forces. My question to you is, has this ever happened to you?
Greg: Yeah. All right, let’s get to the show. Let’s do it.
Clip: He has the skills.
Clip: Stop right there!
Clip: Of a dangerous man.
Clip: What’s in Paris? It’s a name. Jason Bourne. Let’s see if the Paris police can find him for us. And the only way.
Clip: He can survive.
Clip: Is to find out who he is.
Clip: What is it? Something wrong?
Clip: Danger.
Clip: I have everything to put inside me. Is everything I ever learned? All of it was born.
Clip: The Bourne identity.
Greg: The year is 2002, and Doug Liman steps up to the plate to make his very first big budget movie, teaming up with writers Tony Gilroy and, of course, the author Robert Ludlum, who gave him permission to make this movie. They together make a movie called The Bourne Identity. Oh my gosh. We’re getting into it. Today. We are talking about Matt Damon, Franka Patent, Chris Cooper, Clive Owen, Brian Cox, Gabriel Man, Julia Stiles, Josh Hamilton.
Greg: That might be all we need to say about this movie right now. Joe Sky Tucker, it is finally time for us to get to the Bourne series. This is an episode of great Bourne movies right now. That’s right, Joe Sky Tucker. What makes The Bourne Identity a great bad movie?
Joe: There are parts of this movie that feel like it’s probably too good for this show.
Greg:
Joe: It feels like an accidental action movie in a lot of ways. Like, it’s more like a spy thriller with some really cool action scenes thrown in. Yep. It’s got interesting characters that are making, I think, pretty logical choices. Like, that was the thing that I was struck by throughout this movie. You know, even though the conceit of the movie is fantastical, Matt Damon really brings kind of a humanity and a depth to this character that can be pretty.
Joe: One note and it’s an origin story as well, you know? So it’s kind of a hero origin story, and it really does make a marked shift in kind of this of movie where we hadn’t had, I call it, I call it in my real back of the box. I’m thinking man’s action movie. Yeah, it’s trying to be a good movie and not just get to the set pieces of the action and kind of have real tried and true character tropes throughout.
Joe: Yeah. Even though it’s kind of relying on a lot of tropes that we usually see in movies, it feels different. There’s something about it that’s a little more rooted, a little bit more grounded in reality. And it’s pretty fun. I hadn’t seen this movie in 20 years.
Greg: Oh, wow.
Joe: I don’t think I’ve even seen the last the Jason Bourne one. I think I’ve seen all three. I know, I’ve seen all three. I, I can’t really remember the second and the third. There are pieces of them that just kind of flow together to me. Okay. But I’m definitely going to go on a deep dive into this world and watch the next three of these movies.
Joe: But this is a movie that sets off kind of a new kind of action movie. We’ve talked about it here famously, the James Bond movies had to reconfigure what they were doing based on the Jason Bourne movies, because they were kind of doing cool things and different things. The action, when I saw it, I remember seeing this in the theater felt new and exciting.
Joe: Now it feels a little dated, but that kind of goes with what the character is. So I thoroughly enjoyed coming back into The Bourne Averse and seeing the beginning of it. A couple of things that I really appreciated. There’s no. Hobbs and Shaw travel logic in this. Like it shows them traveling from wherever they are to Paris, and it takes them, like all night to get there.
Joe: And he falls asleep. It’s not. We don’t have the Hobbs and Shaw travel logic of like this. They’re there.
Greg: They’re literally driving.
Joe: Yeah, yeah. And so they kind of bring that forward that like it is you’re kind of on the trip with them as they’re discovering things, and there’s some really fun action sequences in it. Clive Owen pops up in a real bit part and he’s got, you know, a really memorable scene to me. And I remembered it when I saw it the first time.
Joe: But I really enjoyed coming back into this, this universe and enjoyed this movie more than I thought I would. I was kind of ready for a little bit of 2002 action. Oh yeah, it changes the game a little bit. But does it really? And I think it does. It’s a really it’s an interesting movie. There are some fantastical points in the in the plot that are a little ridiculous, but we’ll get into that.
Joe: But I’ll turn it back to you, Greg, what did you think of The Bourne Identity or this time through?
Greg: It totally holds up. It holds up better than I always think it will. I’m curious, is this maybe a contender for a great, great movie?
Joe: It’s definitely on the edge for me. Okay. I don’t know if it there there are some things in it that happen that are a little ridiculous, starting with the fact that after he is rescued at sea, the doctor on board who is apparently the world’s greatest surgeon.
Greg: On a fisherman’s.
Joe: Boat on a fisherman’s boat, starts like picking out a scar on his hip. Like, why would you do that? There is no reason anyone would do that. But then he finds the microchip with the bank information in it. You know, I thought that was a particularly ridiculous thing to have had happened. You know, like this doctor on the on the boat, it’s just like, well, what’s this?
Joe: I’m going to, like, cut into you some more. So there are a few moments like that that I think are a little ridiculous, but for the most part, I think it’s definitely I will let the conversation take us to the final review, but I will say it’s not out of the card to call it a great, great movie.
Greg: We don’t know where this thing is going to go.
Joe: That’s right.
Greg: If you go any direction from here on out.
Joe: That’s right. Exactly. We’re just as surprised as you are great viewers of ours. So, you know, that’s the beauty of this show. There are no preconceived notions about our movies.
Greg: Absolutely not.
Joe: We’re just letting the conversation happen.
Greg: So I rewatched this whole series every couple of years. Much like the Mission Impossible series, this is just one that I continually go back to, and this movie holds up much more than I think it’s going to. Every time there’s a big shift between Doug Liman directing this one and Paul Greengrass doing the second and third one, and I think a lot of people thought that Paul Greengrass was the true auteur for this series, after The Bourne Supremacy and The Bourne Ultimatum, but I don’t think that’s true.
Greg: That must have just been recency bias for everybody, because when I go back and watch this movie, it is a fairly rock solid first chapter. Yeah, of a series. And you just wouldn’t have this movie without Doug Liman, who at that point had made swingers and Go, but was really obsessed with this book and went to Robert Ludlum and said, please let me make it.
Greg: And then he called Tony Gilroy, man, a lot of Gilroy recently for us, by the way. He’s kind of ghostwritten a bunch of stuff since we recorded last. I’ve watched the second season of Andor. For some reason, I never got to it, and it is pure Tony Gilroy in that, you know, he approached Star Wars and said, I don’t think you should do this, but if you’re going to, you should do it this way.
Greg: And they let him do what he wanted to do to tell that story. And I feel like that’s kind of what he’s fighting for with this as well. And so I kind of can’t just say it’s Doug Liman. I think Tony Gilroy is maybe the auteur I want to take a look at in this episode, because it’s really, well, maybe it’s just a murderer’s row of good people working together, but Tony Gilroy was trying to make an anti Bourne.
Greg: He didn’t want somebody who was a misogynist. He didn’t want somebody who had nice suits. He wanted it to be messy, kind of low to the ground fighting, not big set pieces.
Joe: Yeah. I think my perspective on this movie is that it’s trying to be an interesting movie, not just like a giant piece action movie, where it is just all about the plot of getting to the next, either the action sequence or kind of figuring out the whodunit pieces of it. Yeah, it takes its time in ways we don’t see in movies a lot.
Joe: There’s a scene when they are in a diner, and we’re kind of understanding Matt Damon’s character, as he’s kind of understanding and he’s talking about how many people are in the restaurant, how many exits there are, how many cars are in the parking lot. Those sorts of moments in the movie which are giving us the character, but also it’s just a nice scene between the main characters of the movie.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: Where you don’t see that as much in action movies. I wasn’t used to seeing that, or they would take the time there. You know, you’re kind of you’re with them on the drive to Paris, but nothing happens. There’s no action sequences that happen on the trip. It’s just them together. Yeah. And, you know, it gives us these moments of character development that you don’t see in action movies.
Greg: Totally.
Joe: And so you like these characters as they’re figuring each other out, you know? Yes, they do end up having kind of a love story that comes through it, but it doesn’t feel as forced as it does in some action movies where it’s just like they meet, they hate each other, then they work together and then, you know, somewhere in the second act they’re together.
Joe: And then, you know, she’s captured, he’s captured, and they’ve got to rescue each other. Like, right. There’s nothing none of that happens in this. Which is to its credit.
Greg: I feel like we need to go back to Tony Gilroy then, because here’s what he said about this movie. He said, I think those books are dumb. Those books are about how to get to an airport, basically kind of calling them airport novels, right. And he took like the first ten pages and then threw the rest out. So there’s like amnesia.
Greg: There’s a guy who wakes up in the water or is pulled out of the water and has been shot. And then some of the other characters from the book are in the movie, but have completely different personalities and skills and are just entirely different characters. So what Tony Gilroy did was he kind of took the beginning and then wrote it from there the way he wanted to.
Greg: And here’s what he said. The idea of the movie was, if I don’t know who I am and I don’t know where I came from, I can only identify myself by the things that I do and know how to do. What if I find out that all the things that I know how to do are bad?
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: That’s how he wrote this movie and it’s incredible. So let’s listen to Matt Damon discovering that about himself in that diners thing you were just mentioning.
Clip: I can tell you the license plate numbers of all six cars outside. I can tell you that our waitress is left handed, and the guy sitting up at the counter weighs 215 pounds and knows how to handle himself. I know the best place to look for a gun is the cab of the gray truck outside, and at this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hand starts shaking.
Clip: And why would I know that?
Clip: How can I know that? And I know who I am?
Greg: I feel like we could sell a lot of gravestones that said, 215 pounds and knew how to handle himself.
Joe: Yeah, exactly.
Greg: That’s a gravestone that we could sell out there.
Joe: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that this movie really leans into, as you mentioned, that Tony Gilroy piece of like he’s discovering this and he doesn’t like what he’s discovering about himself.
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Joe: And unlike other movies where they really sell the good guy and I can see in in other writers hands, other directors hands, a scene where they are talking about Jason Bourne and they have them in it throughout. But you only learn what you need to about the character throughout the movie. So you kind of you get to this big climax with Chris Cooper where you find out that Jason Bourne is not just an assassin, but he’s like the best of the best.
Joe: There’s like a line that’s like, I can find anyone to kill someone.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: But to make it look like an accident or to, you know, so, like, he is who you bring in when you want finesse within this. So it’s. And throughout the movie, we’re seeing him be able to fight and kill all the other kind of people from Treadstone pretty easily throughout. And then by the end, you get to why?
Joe: So you kind of have this really slow reveal of who he was. Yeah. And then who he’s trying to be kind of juxtaposed without beating you over the head with it, too, which I think is what makes it such an interesting movie, because, again, in less capable hands or in different hands, they are going to hit you constantly with this.
Joe: I mean, and I’m going to take a shot at the Gray Man, not because I think at the bad movie, but because that’s an action movie that is designed around nine set piece action scenes.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: With some character development and it’s got, you know, really peppy dialog to it, but.
Greg: It leans Lloyd.
Joe: Leans Lloyd. Yeah, absolutely. You’re glib I get it. So. And it works perfectly for the tone of that movie. And I would say that this the tone of this movie is like diametrically opposed still, but really being more subtle about it. Great, man. There’s not much that’s subtle about that movie at all, and they’re not trying to be.
Joe: So I appreciate the like that’s what they’re trying to do. Yeah. And I appreciate that. They’re trying to do a different kind of thing with this movie where it is a little bit of a slow burn. It doesn’t feel like, again, I would hesitate to even call it an action movie. It’s like there are action scenes. Again, I keep coming back to this of like there are action scenes, but it’s more feels like a spy thriller with some action scenes within it.
Greg: Yeah, it’s not an action movie, but it’s very tense. And I mean, like the action scenes that are in this movie are pretty incredible. Yeah, the car chase escaping from the embassy, but then it’s like silent and he’s just walking on the outside of a building and it’s just really tense. If this movie was made this year, I would be its biggest fan.
Greg: Yeah, like I feel like this is a pretty timeless kind of execution that you could do in the movie, but it was a ridiculous time for action movies in 2002, and we needed a Nirvana, never mind level reset on what was happening, like the James Bond movie that came out before this, Die Another Day had the invisible car that was going through the Ice Palace, and it was just ridiculous, you know?
Greg: Yeah, we were in between Mission Impossible two and Mission Impossible three. I think this movie had a big influence on Mission Impossible three.
Joe: I’m looking at movies that came out this year, 2002. We have oh, we did do the transporter, so we have transporter.
Greg: Okay. So we’ve done it. We’ve done the work. We’ve done the work.
Joe: To be done. We have bad company.
Greg: Sam Raimi’s Spider-Man came out this year, didn’t it?
Joe: I think so we have the yeah, Die Another day sum of all Fears.
Greg: Sounds pretty good. Phil Alden Robinson.
Joe: So yeah, there’s some good movies out there, but like the big tent, action movies are pretty men in black to, I would say, cartoonish, whether they’re literally based on a cartoon like Spider-Man or kind of bigger than they need to be. I mean, Sum of All Fears is based on a Tom Clancy book. It sort of follows the book.
Greg: But as far as tone goes, I think Jack Ryan is probably the closest we can get to the Bourne movies as far as ordinary person in an extraordinary scenario, but it’s not like Die Hard level or a couple levels up from that. We’re definitely post Stallone, post Schwarzenegger. We’re also post nine over 11, and I think that’s a big deal when it comes to this movie.
Greg: They filmed the third act and rewrote the third act because they didn’t like how eerily close their third act was to nine over 11. You know, they traded out large explosions for the farmhouse seen or just finishing with the fight in a building in a stairwell, you know, and I think the film really benefited from that. At least I wouldn’t have wanted to see, you know, big explosion in the third act in 2002.
Joe: I mean, that farmhouse scene, like there’s a there’s an anxiety that I have around it. Yeah, I have this visceral response like, I’ve if you’ve ever been in a place where you shouldn’t be and then someone walks in like that. Yeah. That helpless feeling of, I’ve been caught, what do I do? And then we know all the backstory of what’s happening.
Joe: And it’s it’s a great scene. And again, you don’t get that in an action movie that often.
Greg: We if you do get that, you think this is lazy writing, that we’re suddenly someplace and we’re just meeting somebody for a second. We probably just needed to get from here to there. And so we’re staying the night at somebody’s house, but in this case, it just it adds to the tension. And Clive Owen showing up in that field and having that almost like duck hunting action scene I guess.
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: Well, can we talk a little bit about the production of this movie? Because it is super fascinating because this is like one of the most famous train wrecks of production in history, where Doug Liman is famously, I mean, famously, notoriously difficult to work with. And he is constantly changing things on the fly. He was actually, like in front of the whole crew, screamed at by Frank Marshall and Frank Marshall, who came out of this movie kind of right before they started shooting, because the original producer had a family emergency.
Greg: And so Frank Marshall comes in. Frank Marshall produced, like the back of the feature movies, Indiana Jones movies. His wife, Kathleen Kennedy, definitely was in charge of Star Wars there for quite a while. One of the very best producers you can have around. And he just screamed at Doug Liman one time, just saying, you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re coming unprepared.
Greg: And Doug Liman is just constantly changing his mind on what they needed to do. And he was coming from kind of indie cinema where you just do it on the fly all the time. He would often grab the camera from the camera people and just shoot it himself. And so when they finished the movie, quote unquote, it was incredible action scenes, and the rest of it kind of didn’t hang together or make any sense.
Greg: And the studio freaked out because they were like, this is not working. None of the relationships work. Everything you praised about this movie was not working when they finished it.
Joe: Interesting.
Greg: And so Frank Marshall calls up Dan Mindel, the cinematographer who filmed our last film, that we talked about, The Enemy of the state and the movie before that, mission Impossible three. This is our third movie in the Dan Mandela verse. Called him up and said, we need to go shoot all of the non-action scenes of this movie. And Tony Gilroy has come back to rewrite and basically stitched together everything that isn’t an action scene in this movie.
Greg: And so when the camera is, like going nuts, that means it’s probably in the first pass. And when it’s not going nuts, that means it’s in the second pass. They reshot somewhere between 50 and 70% of this movie.
Joe: Wow. That’s crazy.
Greg: And it was being written day to day. Tony Gilroy is faxing scripts pieces to Paris as they’re filming and rewriting the third act to make it all make sense. And so the reason it makes sense is because they did a second pass at it. And so it’s a miracle that it all came together. They also filmed all the scenes with Brian Cox and Chris Cooper and kind of made those, you know, any scene where they’re like sitting at a table and talking.
Greg: That was in the second pass.
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: And when you’ve got those two guys, you have to just let them cook, you know? Yeah. Let Cox be Cox I’m constantly saying that.
Joe: Yeah. You have two of the best character actors we’ve ever had in a movie in a scene. Let them let them do what they do. It’s interesting because this is the second Doug Liman film we’ve done. Famously, we did Edge of Tomorrow.
Greg: Yeah, great. Great movie.
Joe: And similar conversation around Doug Liman being indecisive and but somehow it seems like he doesn’t ever get a second chance with the same crew. So they didn’t bring him back. But also sometimes that tension can that creative tension can create greatness. And it clearly has for a couple of his films in my mind.
Greg: I mean, it falls apart sometimes, like jumper is not a great movie, but in this case, I mean, Matt Damon was also fighting for what this movie became. Apparently, Tony Gilroy went off to work on Proof of Life with Russell Crowe and I think Meg Ryan. And so they brought in another screenwriter who did it, did an alternate version of the third act, and Matt Damon said that he was freaking out reading the new pages because he was like, every couple pages something would blow up.
Greg: He was like, this is not the movie. I signed up for me. And so they brought Tony Gilroy back. It’s interesting stuff. It’s interesting that they knew what they wanted to make. And, you know, they didn’t get it on the first try, but they kept going and made a movie that I think everybody who worked on this, it was a nightmare, an absolute nightmare.
Greg: And it’s a stone cold classic.
Joe: Yeah. That’s very that’s very interesting. They’re able to pull that off. Yeah. It’s successful in spite of itself is what it sounds like.
Greg: Yeah. And it changed action movies for 20 years.
Joe:
Greg: Yeah. Let’s listen to Chris Cooper and Brian Cox. And by the way I would be entirely fine with a three hour stage play of these two guys talking.
Joe: Absolutely.
Greg: With Tony Gilroy dialog. Let’s listen to what it sounds like when they when they talk.
Clip: I was recalling a conversation we had some time ago talking about Treadstone. I seem to remember the quantum one. Bose’s name might have come up. I’m not sure what.
Clip: We’re talking about.
Clip: Someone tried to take him out, try it, and failed. Was this Treadstone?
Clip: You’re asking me a direct question?
Clip: Yes.
Clip: I thought you were never going to do that.
Clip: What happened?
Clip: Well, we lost the communication with our man.
Clip: This was almost two weeks ago.
Clip: I’ve been working around the clock. The whole unit. I’ve been sleeping down there. Believe me, we’re doing everything we can.
Clip: And you don’t let me know this.
Clip: You never wanted to before.
Clip: You never made a mistake before.
Greg: Might be a little bit cheesy, but I’m here for it.
Joe: Yeah, well, what’s interesting is I’m thinking of the different ways now that this movie could have gone. And there are a couple moments kind of in the probably the early second act, especially with the character who he goes to assassinate on the boat while bossy because he is a deposed. I think African dictator is what he set up to be.
Joe: Yeah, and he is trying to get back into power and he’s threatening the US government to like, install him back or else. And the US government said they’ve had enough of him and they’re going to kill him. And that’s where Damon’s character comes in. And there’s a scene where they right before spoiler alert one dies where you can see a different version of this movie is that character is ready for war, and the third act is going to be one is coming after Matt Damon’s character.
Joe: And you can kind of see an action movie based on that. You know, maybe there’s the Treadstone stuff that’s kind of in the background here and there, but the main thrust of the movie is he figures out who’s trying to kill him, and then Matt Damon has to defend himself and goes and kills him. And then there’s a big there’s the typical action movie that we have watched a million times.
Joe: Yeah. And instead, within that scene, he is shot by Clive Owen’s character. And that just like basically to me was like, that’s not the kind of movie we’re watching. We’re watching a different movie. We’re going to get rid of this character, and we’re also going to use it as a plot point to show anybody we can get anyone to kill someone.
Joe: But you hire Jason Bourne when you need. You need it to be special. And so to me, it was a chef’s kiss to the filmmaking or the writing of this movie, to have that be a little bit of a red herring throughout the movie of that character.
Greg: Yeah, the stitching feels a little bit threadbare around that part of the plot. Every time I watch it, I have a little bit of a what are we doing here? What? Why are we going out of our way for this plot point? And then it kind of goes nowhere. And I guess it does kind of pay off at the end where, you know, that is what was happening right before we join the story.
Greg: So I guess it is kind of important. But I swear, the first three times I saw this movie, I didn’t really understand what was going on there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joe: I mean, I feel like Julia Stiles, so I know she comes back in later. Yeah. Is completely unutilized in this movie, her character feels like half of her scenes are on the cutting room floor somewhere. You could almost cut her out of the movie, and it doesn’t change it at all.
Greg: I like the weight that she brings to it, though. For some reason, I like that, you know, a couple of books down the road, she is going to be a main point. Like she gets a main part in the fifth movie, right? And Jason Bourne and.
Joe: The third one I thought.
Greg: To.
Joe: I haven’t seen the last one, but I have.
Greg: You haven’t seen Jason Bourne? Oh, wow. We’ll get to Jason Bourne.
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: We are kind of divided on how amazing The Bourne Legacy is. I think The Bourne Legacy is maybe the best movie I’ve ever seen in my life with Jeremy Renner. Yeah, written and directed by Tony Gilroy.
Joe: It’s good and I would I what I will say is, now that I have had the The Bourne World reopen.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: Dear listeners, I will be watching the remaining four movies in the next couple of weeks, so don’t worry, I will have lots of opinions that’ll be sprinkled in. And I’m excited about it because honestly, I have only seen them once and I haven’t seen the last the Jason Bourne one at all. And I have honestly no real recollection of exactly what happens other than either a helicopter or crane shot with Moby flying away at the end of every movie is just what I know.
Greg: So these movies really are the long lasting legacy of an artist named Moby. Yes.
Joe: Who famously peaked in, what, 2000 with play.
Greg: 2000 and 2001? Yeah, yeah. If you’re curious what the book was like versus, you know, this movie that’s entirely different. There actually was a TV special like a mini series on TV in 1988 that was pretty faithful to the book. And it’s three hours long. It stars Richard Chamberlain and Jacqueline Smith. Awesome. Just pure 80s TV royalty, and it’s all on YouTube.
Greg: So I’m going to embed that full three hour movie on the page for this episode at Grade Bad Movies. And I think everyone should take at least three hours and watch it, if not six. You should probably rewatch it immediately.
Joe: Absolutely. And I feel like David Hallgren has read all of these books and seen all of these movies. And then we will get to our prop bets on taking over Kelsey, our. When has David Hallgren watched this movie?
Greg: And we’ll be doing that in the bonus episode next week. Is that right? Yes, that’s right. Clive Owen just shows up out of nowhere in this movie. Does every movie need Clive Owen in it?
Joe: I think it does. He’s. I love to see him and everything he’s in. He’s one of those actors that brings a weight to his performances. This is a throwaway character that literally in this movie has. If it has five lines, that’s it. But he’s dying. Matt Damon has killed him, and it’s still the only thing that I really remember vividly.
Greg: Oh, wow. Yeah.
Joe: He’s giving information on where the plot is going to go, but he just gives him Treadstone as a name and he doesn’t really give him much else beyond that. It’s not like he dies. And then but as he’s dying, he, like, gives the entire like, and if you go here and you’ll, you’ll be able to figure out the rest of all of this, which is a scene.
Joe: Again, we have seen a million times. I think that’s that’s what I appreciate about this movie, is like, we’ve seen a lot of these scenes or the setup to them in a thousand other movies, and I think that’s Tony Gilroy. To me, that’s like why you have a great writer.
Greg: Who.
Joe: Is trying to actively make a movie that is the antithesis of the big budget. Everything blows up at the end.
Greg: Action movie. This is like that scene in Quantum of Solace where the the guy is taking his last minute or two of life and helping James bond with his mission. Yeah.
Joe: Yes, exactly.
Greg: That’s not what Clive Owen is doing here. He’s talking about his experience and what he’s going through as a way to say, like, this is what it’s like to be us, isn’t it? But also, Matt Damon is learning about who he is. And yeah, by seeing this happen to Clive. And that’s some really good writing right there. It is really good.
Greg: Yeah. And while he’s dying there in that’s in, in that field, I would also be so allergic to that field where I’m like, I think I would have been dead by now. I think my allergies would have killed me already. What a bummer in your last minute of life to be also super allergic. Yeah.
Joe: Yeah. And they do a really great job like Matt Damon mentions like, his headaches early in the film. Yeah. And it is like Clive. Oh, and he’s dying and he’s looking for connection.
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Joe: Because it’s like I’m like you, we work alone, you know? Do you get the headaches? But Matt Damon is like, isn’t asking us almost. It’s like a monologue. Yeah, in a sense. You know, I was asking him, like some questions, but again, why? You have great actors and great writing together. Yeah. And you just get this magical little moment that you don’t get again.
Joe: It’s such a small thing, but it’s stuck with me. It’s still stuck with me. I still that’s one of the main things I remember about that movie.
Greg: It’s incredible. It’s incredible. Why don’t. I never will understand why we don’t see more. Clive? Owen, what’s going on with Clive Owen? Does he just not want it?
Joe: I’m not sure. I mean, this is when he was on coming up. He’s in, like Sin City. He’s got. He’s in. Shoot em up. He’s in City of Men or Children of Men.
Greg: I mean, children of men. Yeah.
Joe: He’s in that movie with The Closer. With.
Greg: Oh, closer. Yeah. He was in closer. Yeah, yeah.
Joe: So like, this is him. Like, at the beginnings of his rise to stardom. But yeah, I don’t know what. What is he up to these days?
Greg: I think he was in Gemini man with Will Smith. Okay. Which, by the way, is amazing. We will totally get to Gemini Man. Guess what Clive Owens character’s name is in this movie.
Joe: I saw this. It is. Was it the professor or.
Greg: The professor?
Joe: Oh, yeah.
Greg: Do you think he got to choose that? Like my name? Just be the the professor in this movie? I hope so, yeah.
Joe: I saw an interview with Mike Schur on Amy Poehler podcast.
Greg: Oh, good. Hang.
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: And that was a great episode.
Joe: He talks in there about like, his love for naming characters.
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Joe: And he said that he didn’t want anyone to ever be in a movie where they’re just. Like guy in crowd number three. Right? So he took special pride in Everybody Gets a Name, but apparently there’s something about like, either your name has to be really common or really uncommon to get into a show because then someone is like, hey, that’s my name, are they talking about me?
Joe: And then they might get sued or whatever it is. And so he talks about it’s a hilarious five minute excerpt of him talking about how he names his characters. And so he’ll just like, famously there’s like a trod Ferguson. There’s one of the characters, and he just adds an R to Todd. So he just it’s a great I just saw this like a couple days ago.
Joe: And so it is hilarious. And that’s what I thought of the second I saw that.
Greg: The professor. The professor.
Greg: I feel a lot of pressure on this one. It’s The Bourne Identity, like it is a lightning rod amongst how movies are going to be made. This is like a an older John Wick, you know, the movie that kind of just determines how everything looks. But the truth is, it’s just it’s The Bourne Identity. It’s amazing. And, you know, as we talk about it, I really worry about what if people who are listening to this, they don’t even know what we’re talking about.
Greg: They don’t know what this movie is about. And so, Joe, I’m wondering if we could pretend for just a moment that you’re walking down the aisles of Blockbuster Video in 2002, 2003. You’re trying to figure out what movie are you going to rent? You’re picking up boxes off the shelves and you’re reading the back to see what the synopsis is.
Greg: Maybe you could do that for this movie. And so that’s right. It’s time for the back of the box.
Clip: It’s the back of the box.
Joe: When a man with amnesia and lethal skills is found floating in the Mediterranean Sea, the race is on. Can he remember who he is before those chasing him do? With little to go on and his world closing in around him, will his skills keep him alive? Or will he just become another victim in a global game? This spy thriller mixes action and suspense in equal parts, all to answer what is Bourne’s identity?
Greg: Whoa.
Joe: I was particularly proud that I rolled in the title of the film and then tweaked it a little bit, so you’re welcome, America.
Greg: I think usually that costs extra, but this one was like on the house. You’re like, I’m just going to show you how good it can be.
Joe: Yeah, exactly.
Greg: All right. Well, Joe, that’s like the standard fare, like marketing back in the box. Obviously you hit out of the park. Nobody has to tell you that. But let’s get to the real, honest, actual Joe Sky Tucker. Back of the box.
Joe: The Bourne Identity kicks off a new thinking man’s action movie. The hero makes surprisingly logical choices throughout, all while on the run from deadly forces. The action scenes do feel choppy now when compared to where things are, but for their time, they felt cutting edge. This movie is an interesting origin story, where the plot is just as tight as the action.
Greg: Wow, okay, what movie made it less choppy? This movie doesn’t have the shaky cam that the supremacy does or ultimatum, but it is quite edited. But then like John Wick kind of started getting a lot of those action beats all in one shot. Is that kind of way you’re reacting to. Yeah, yeah.
Joe: So I think like there’s that there’s like I look at like Sam Hargrave and the and those movies that he’s done. And so it definitely is like the 8711 a fiction of actions movies or action scenes.
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Joe: But it’s also like pre when they weren’t really heavy into the CGI effects. So there are some CGI in this movie that are pretty blatant, but it’s not too bad.
Greg: Like where where comes to mind.
Joe: There’s a couple scenes on the boat where I just felt.
Greg: Like, oh.
Joe: Yeah, and it’s not even in the action scenes. They’re using CGI or green screens and that sort of thing. But it was also kind of before we start getting into really bad CGI, close calls, car chase sort of stuff.
Greg: Yeah, sure. Those right after this. Yeah, yeah.
Joe: So pretty much you get pretty practical stunts in this movie. And I really love and I appreciate that when the when that happens, even there’s that scene when he’s escaping the, the embassy and he’s like trying to climb on the roof, it really feels like you’re there with him. Totally stories up and you can like, you can feel how cold it is.
Joe: The stakes were real because they were in the environment.
Greg: Gosh, that scene is so good. It’s so good. And the camera is just kind of floating above him. Yeah, it’s just ridiculous. Yeah. This was Matt Damon’s first action movie. He was in Ocean’s 11, which had some running around, but not really the year before this. Yeah, but really, he’s like the guy from rounders. Goodwill hunting, I guess he was Private Ryan, wasn’t he?
Greg: In Saving Private Ryan? He was in All the Pretty Horses, which kind of bombed. He was in a few movies that kind of bombed right before this came out. And he actually was like, this is going to be my third strike. This is the one where if this one doesn’t work, I’m done because like, there was a very active three strikes and you’re out in Hollywood.
Greg: Right. And so he, he kind of thought he was making his last movie. He was like, at least I’m going out on something I like.
Joe: I mean, it’s his first big starring action role. Clearly. Yeah. You know, because even like if you think of Saving Private Ryan as an action movie, he doesn’t show up till an hour into that movie. Right? 45 minutes to an hour.
Greg: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joe: I mean, he is the point of it. But that’s to me that is Tom Hanks movie through and through. Yeah for sure. And the crew that is trying to get to him.
Greg: And Vin Diesel.
Joe: And yeah.
Greg: Obviously.
Joe: It’s really the prequel to. Yes, Fast and Furious.
Greg: That’s true. That’s true. And the amnesia in this movie really has shades of Letty and Fast and Furious six. We should say that.
Joe: Yeah, absolutely.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: Thank you for bringing that up. This is my people come to this podcast.
Greg: Yeah, yeah, this movie invented it so that Fast and Furious could perfect it.
Joe: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. And I and I feel like Matt Damon at this point was, you know, up and coming actor, not action movie star.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: Yeah. And so I can see how it would be considered a risk for him career wise. You know looking back it’s like of course the catapult him forward. But at the time it was kind of like, oh Matt Damon’s in this. Interesting. Yeah. I wouldn’t, you know, I wouldn’t have cast him in this. This kind of would have been the thought back then.
Greg: And it’s amazing how young he looks in this movie.
Joe: Seriously.
Greg: Like, his face kind of filled out in his late 20s right after this, it seems like. So it’s interesting to see how he has grown up throughout the Bourne movies. And he’s like, he’s. He could have wrapped into the name Little Matt Damon, and he’s really kind of a younger guy. Yeah. All right. Joe, well, should we get to the box office and critical reviews of the movie The Bourne Identity from 2002?
Joe: Absolutely. I would love nothing more.
Greg: All right, let’s do it. This movie came out 2002. Despite filming it almost twice, it still only costs $60 million to make, which Wow is kind of a lot. It’s a big risk. First time big budget director, first time action actor. This movie made $121 million domestically, $92 million internationally for a worldwide box office of $214 million.
Joe: Nice. So I made some money. So people the investors made money and then some.
Greg: And then between DVD and Blu ray, we don’t have like hard numbers, but it’s estimated it probably made about another $16 million. So this movie was a big stinking hit. Maybe we should consider a sequel, Joe, when it comes to Rotten Tomatoes and what the critics thought of this movie, what do you think the Rotten Tomatoes critic score is?
Joe: It feels like a 70 as we’re doing it.
Greg: Yeah, no it does. I think you’re right.
Joe: I do feel like if I remember when this came out, it was well regarded. So I’m going to go 82.
Greg: 84 really close. All right. So then there’s the audience. We have 250,000 plus ratings. So somewhere over that number that seems to be the peak number Rotten Tomatoes is willing to get us.
Joe: Okay.
Greg: What do you think the audience score. The popcorn meter is on Rotten Tomatoes.
Joe: I have been wrong recently about because usually the popcorn is better than the critics. I’m going to go 86.
Greg: 93.
Joe: Wow.
Greg: Holds up.
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: Hold people like this movie. All right, well let’s get into what the critics said. We get to start this week with our favorite friend of the show, Moira MacDonald, writing for the Seattle Times, our hometown paper write Moira macdonald says Bourne aspires only to be a fun popcorn movie, and for the most part, it is three out of four stars.
Joe: All right. I feel like she missed a little bit of how great this movie is, but I’ll allow it because she’s a friend of the show.
Greg: From where to kind of watch this again with fresh eyes.
Joe: I think so.
Greg: See it again for the first time, is what you’re saying? Yes, absolutely. All right. Mick LaSalle from the San Francisco Chronicle says there are moments that feel just on the edge of silly, but that’s the idea.
Joe: Just on the edge of silly. Ring the Bell.
Greg: Because there it is. That could be the name of our show. Yeah. Peter Travers from rolling Stone says, in these dog days, Bourne earns what passes as high praise. It doesn’t suck. Three and a half out of five stars.
Joe: Also probably, hopefully would be a name.
Greg: It doesn’t suck.
Joe: I forgot to ask, when did this movie come out? In 2002. Do you remember?
Greg: It came out June 14th, 2002.
Joe: Two and 14. Okay, so it came out in the peak.
Greg: So big dumb movies are coming out. Yeah. And this one is probably kind of like a this one isn’t bad. Yeah. The Houston Chronicle says The Bourne Identity shouldn’t be half as entertaining as it is, but director Doug Liman and his colleagues have managed to pack it with enough action to satisfy the boom Bam crowd without a huge sacrifice of character and mood.
Greg: B+.
Joe: All right.
Greg: Todd McCarthy from variety says a first rate thriller with grit and intrigue. Despair. Yeah. Nailed it. Emma Cochrane from Empire magazine says, for once, a sequel would be welcome four out of five stars.
Joe: Wow, wow. Stealing our thunder there.
Greg: A little bit, a little bit. Yeah.
Greg: Yours would say for never. A prequel would be welcome.
Joe: Yes, exactly.
Greg: That should be your review on Rotten Tomatoes on every movie. Yeah. All right. Neil Smith from BBC com says A fast paced, unpredictable and edgy yarn that breathes new life into the espionage thriller game three out of five stars.
Joe: I liked all the words. I didn’t like the number scoring. I feel like that was a four out of five to me.
Greg: Yeah. Why don’t we call Neil Smith on the air right here and have some harsh words for him? Yeah.
Joe: Good. Good thinking.
Greg: Yeah, I know what you’re thinking. Neil, why am I calling? But then you realize it probably has to do with my August 20th, 2002 review of The Bourne Identity. And you would be right, sir. You would be right.
Joe: Then he had totally apologizes for how harsh he was in the movie.
Greg: 100%. All right. Andrew Sarris from observer says a rollicking adventure yarn. What’s going on with yarn here?
Joe: I don’t know if we I don’t know if we should add that to our title, but it’s an interesting use of that word that I haven’t heard ever in any of our reviews to this.
Greg: So I think you got to bring yarn back.
Joe: I think so.
Greg: Justin Timberlake, Brett sexy back, but I don’t see anybody bringing yarn back unless we do know.
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: All right. Rex Reed in The Observer said a film that is at best misguided, at worst stubbornly flashy, garbled and ready to file in the drawer labeled instantly forgettable.
Joe: Wow. Instantly forgettable. Might be a good name for this podcast that said. Wow. So not a fan is what I mean.
Greg: Not a fan. Wow. Rex Reed just really planting a flag in the ground right there and regretting it for the rest of his life, I’m assuming.
Joe: Probably.
Greg: Yeah. All right. Jay Hoberman from The Village Voice says Lyman takes a giant step towards halftime with his banal, big budget adaptation of Robert Ludlum 1980 espionage thriller. Not a fan. Wow.
Joe: That’s pretty harsh. These last two have been pretty harsh.
Greg: So pretty harsh. But I think we probably should have named our podcast Giant Steps Towards Hacked Him.
Greg: So I’ll allow it.
Greg: Here is my favorite one sentence review of this movie from Destin Thomas in the Washington Post. He says there isn’t a dull or dumb moment in this movie. Four out of five stars.
Joe: I think that’s a good one right there.
Greg: Nailed it. I like it that people are kind of like, this looks dumb, but it isn’t. That’s kind of the that’s the angle. The bar was maybe a little bit low for people on this one.
Joe: Like all of the best experiences watching these movies, when you go in with a low expectation in it, and I went in, I didn’t know that. I went in with like, oh, this movie is going to be terrible. And it was better, but it was when it made choices that I wasn’t expecting. I always appreciate that, and I think that that’s what this movie does for me, is that it makes choices that I wasn’t expecting throughout.
Greg: Totally. I might have seen this twice in the theater. This feels like a movie. I probably would have seen twice in the theater, or saw it in the theater and rented it like the weekend it came out on video, right? All right, Joe, should we get to drinking games for The Bourne Identity?
Joe: Absolutely. All right. We’ll start with our stock drinking games. And again, if you’re playing along at home, and we hope that you are. Doesn’t have to be alcohol. It could be. It could be milk. Like you’re going to bed in enemy of the state and you’re Jon Voight. Wow. Or, you know, could be tea, could be coffee. It’ll be water.
Joe: Anything.
Greg: Could we just come up with a new term? I’m going to avoid this glass of milk real quick before I go to bed.
Joe: You need t shirts.
Greg: I’ll be right there. I just gotta avoid a glass of milk real quick. Yeah.
Greg: Yes.
Joe: Okay. This is the answer. Always. Always?
Greg: Yes.
Joe: Starting off with silent helicopter or, you know, plane or. There’s really nothing. Not in this movie. So.
Greg: No. No, because they’re like real people.
Joe: Yeah, yeah. Pushed in and enhanced. Oh. All over this movie. They even say push in and enhance. Yeah I know they say in Hans at one point it is glorious.
Greg: Or was it like clean it.
Joe: Up, clean it up and then enhance.
Greg: Yeah okay.
Joe: Okay. So it is glorious. And magically they take a very pixelated picture and then all of a sudden.
Greg: It is.
Joe: Clear as day. So it’s awesome. We do not have when two people share a slow motion look in the middle of chaos, we don’t have an explosion with silent suffering, a ring in the ears, and we do not have an opening credits scene where the title locks into place for the sound. Disappointing, I know well, but it does.
Joe: Flash back to dialog two minutes ago. We get to see especially the scene on the boat a million times. Yep, yep, I did have some bad CGI just for there’s a couple moments again on the boat where there’s some bad CGI. There aren’t great bad shots that much, but there are a few moments where there are.
Greg: Yeah, there are few.
Joe: Clive Owen.
Greg: Yeah, glorious.
Joe: There are both explicable wet and inexplicably wet streets in this. So the car chase, which is a great car chase.
Greg: Really good shades of Mission Impossible seven.
Joe: Yes, absolutely.
Greg: With a mini car.
Joe: Movie that I am about an hour into again. Just started that.
Greg: Two days ago, but not the Gray Man. That’s why I wanted to talk to you tonight. Yeah.
Joe: Yeah, yeah.
Greg: Confront you about that?
Joe: I should be confronted about that. Yes, but there is an explicitly white street when he sets off car alarms and sneaks into the building in the final scene.
Greg: Yeah. And I think they cut to a jet on a tarmac, and it is an inexplicably wet tarmac. I want to say. Yeah, yeah.
Joe: Okay, so we have a version of give us the room where Brian Cox is walking in and just kind of barges into Chris Cooper’s office and kicks people out. So it’s not like a classic, give us a room. But I feel it’s like close enough that I wanted to include it because that is one of probably you’re my favorite thing that happens in movies, and we don’t get it enough.
Joe: And so I throw it in there. No, Interpol missed opportunity because they’re doing international espionage. Seriously. And no cell phone smash, even though there are cell phones kind of littering this. So again, missed opportunity.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: So I toss it to you. Greg’s find out what is the first drinking game that you noticed when you were watching this movie.
Greg: You mentioned Brian Cox. And he is often walking to the scene that he’s about to be in, and we kind of track with him, and he does this thing a few times where it seems like he’s actively deciding where he should go. Like he walks almost past Chris Cooper’s office and then decides, no, I’m going to go in here.
Greg: When Brian Cox doesn’t seem to know where he’s going. Take a drink.
Joe: Awesome. I don’t have any that are going to live up to.
Greg: That.
Joe: As like, setting the bar high.
Greg: All right, let’s move on.
Joe: Okay. All right.
Greg: Good talk.
Joe: My first one is anytime Matt Damon happens in the first act especially. Yeah. Looks in the mirror at his reflection.
Greg: Oh, interesting. That’s a good one.
Joe: Yeah. As he’s trying to figure out who he is trying to tell us.
Greg: So my next one is every time Jason Bourne punches Chris Cooper, take a drink. Okay. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of striking Chris Cooper.
Joe: Anytime you see a boat on the water at night, take a drink.
Greg: Really good. Really good. Every time he remembers something and then if he ever remembers something and is pained by the memory, like I’m remembering something for the first time, this is probably why it’s a great bad movie. This moment right here, he’s remembering something for the first time and like feeling pain in his head because he’s remembering something so funny.
Greg: So good. Take two drinks if that happens. If he feels pain, take two drinks.
Joe: Absolutely. I have anytime there are solo footprints in the snow that are Matt Damon’s. Because there’s especially in the first part of this movie, there’s a lot of like finding his path was what I was thinking that the filmmaker was going for on that.
Greg: So and you’re probably noticing that if he had like real faith, he would also see the footsteps of Jesus next to him in the snow.
Joe: Yeah, absolutely. Or Buddha.
Greg: That’s probably what you’re thinking. So you’re just sad about it? Yeah. Very sad. Take a drink. Any time they say the word Treadstone. Oh.
Joe: I have that one, too.
Greg: I’m so good.
Joe: I have anytime he speaks a different language.
Greg: Take a drink. Oh, yeah. Totally. All right. Anytime they say the word or the name. One bossy. Take a drink.
Joe: Oh, I love that one. Anytime you see the color red that is used as, like, a color story throughout the movie, really? To denote danger within the movie. So anytime you see red and there’s danger. Take a drink.
Greg: Okay, okay, I misread that. I just thought it meant pants.
Joe: Well, someone is wearing red pants, and that was confusing.
Greg: One red shoe at least. Yeah. Every time we start a scene with Julia Stiles, take a drink. Oh, okay.
Joe: That’s good. Anytime you say he says he doesn’t know who he is.
Greg: Every time someone gets a text. I’m about so good.
Joe: Anytime Matt Damon climbs something or climbs down off of something like a drink.
Greg: Yeah. That’s solid. Every time someone apologizes, even though I don’t think anybody apologizes for real, sometimes he apologizes to Marie. Yeah.
Joe: My last one is anytime there is a real paper map shown. Take a drink.
Greg: Yeah. They’re like pulling maps out. And something we didn’t mention is there’s a quiet before a storm, like 3 or 4 times in this movie. There’s a noticeable lull. Yeah, I really like that. And he grabbed a map during one of those. And what does he say to her about her car? Just out of nowhere. He just kind of starts asking her questions about his.
Greg: About her car.
Joe: Yeah. You take care of your car. The tires felt a little splashy. Splash dry. Yeah.
Greg: What is that?
Joe: I don’t know if that’s a real thing, but I will let let it slide.
Greg: Here’s my last one. Every time they show someone flipping through a stack of cash. Oh, because she has, like, bundles of $10,000. Yeah. And she flips through it kind of considering the money quite a few times.
Joe: Absolutely.
Greg: That’s awesome. All right, Joe, it’s time for us to move on to what makes these movies up. If this is a great, bad movie. Let’s get to Joe’s trope lightning round, aka signs. You might be watching a great bad movie.
Joe: I will note that there is no Shea Whigham in this movie, but the part played by Chris Cooper. If were cast today for Shea, Whigham would 100% play that role.
Greg: Totally, totally.
Joe: Not a trope in the traditional sense, but she. Whigham. We missed you and you’re here in spirit is what I would say. Okay, so we have car chases in another country where they’re driving through markets and those sorts of things crashing into things. Yep. We have one of my favorite ones, a $300 haircut, that he dies her hair and then cuts her hair in the hotel room.
Joe: And she looks amazing. So good job for that. He’s the best of something. He’s kind of a reluctant hero. Redemption is also the driver of the hero. Kind of the action movie trope. No women except for the love interest or mother. So we have the love interest in this. We have a duffel bag full of money. We have amazing recovery time, medical care by a partner or love interest, or in this case, a ship’s doctor who is a great world’s greatest surgeon, and another one of my personal favorites.
Joe: And our last one, a call trace timer, as they’re trying to figure out where he is.
Greg: So glorious. Yeah.
Joe: Almost disappears behind a bus. There’s a scene where he’s, like, trying to get away from the cops. And you think it’s going to be because he walks behind like a tram or a but the police find them instantly. So we don’t have that disappointing that that didn’t happen.
Greg: There’s a few of those shots though. Or like someone walks by and suddenly he’s disappeared.
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: And then at the end of the movie, he appears out of nowhere. Totally amazing. I love it.
Joe: I am highlighting that one right now.
Greg: Yeah. All right. Joe. I feel like we’ve been talking around some things and it’s getting a little bit old. It’s time for us to address the elephant in the room and get to important questions. Okay.
Joe: Okay.
Greg: I’m ready. All right. Joe. Did The Bourne Identity hold up in 2002?
Joe: I think it did.
Greg: Yeah, yeah.
Joe: I loved it when I saw it.
Greg: Yeah. I think when I walked out, I was like, oh, I don’t know if you recognize that the world is changing underneath your feet, by the way. I think you’re right. Recognize it kind of in retrospect. And when I walked out, I was like, okay, I’m not entirely sure what it was. It didn’t like paint by numbers the way I’m used to with these action movies, but I think that was kind of amazing.
Greg: I might want to see it again. Yeah. So that’s how I felt now. So let me follow that question up. Does it hold up now?
Joe: Almost feels like it holds up better now. In some ways.
Greg: I think.
Joe: You’re right. I think because we saw what it did and it’s it’s really interesting and it still does things that I wasn’t expecting that haven’t caught on. Like it’s still a great movie now. So yeah I think it holds up just as well, if not better.
Greg: I’m thinking of why this might be a great bad movie. You know, when they’re in that apartment and it’s really quiet, and then just like a guy with a machine gun crashes through the window, you know?
Greg: That doesn’t hold. I mean, it holds up perfectly in my heart, but I don’t think it holds up in the way that the people who made this movie. Like, literally, right when this person crashes through the window, there just spring machine gun bullets and not hitting anybody. Great bad shots. Yeah, exactly. That’s textbook grade bed shots. Textbook.
Joe: Yeah, that that is pretty ridiculous. Absolutely.
Greg: All right. Next important question. How hard do they sell the good guy in this movie?
Joe: They suddenly sell the good guy. It’s the way that I would say it.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: There are some moments. Kind of classic. They’re back in Langley or wherever they are, in the room with all the computers, and they’re kind of talking about Jason Bourne a little bit, but they don’t give us the classic yeah, version of that. So yeah, it’s not as not what we’re used to.
Greg: So then how hard do they sell the bad guy?
Joe: It’s really kind of hard to tell who the bad guy is. I know it ends up being Chris Cooper.
Greg: I think it’s the CIA.
Joe: Yeah. So they don’t really sell the bad guy at all. It’s just more Treadstone and him trying to escape and all of that.
Greg: But yeah. Yeah, I love that the CIA is the bad guy in this. All right, Joe, why is there romance in this movie?
Joe: It’s almost acceptable romance in this movie. It’s a little like.
Greg: Wow.
Joe: I’ll allow it. You know, she’s a free spirit. Yeah. You know, and they’re, like, in the middle of a stressful situation. Sure. And they kind of get together at the end, but it’s still a struggle for me. But maybe I’ll. I’ll flip it to you. Greg, did you enjoy the romance of this movie like the The Love story arc?
Greg: I did because it seemed pretty relatable, except that, you know, like, he had a bag full of guns and money. Yeah. And amnesia. I don’t know, there was something about it. I was like, you know, it seems like they’re actually kind of getting to know each other. Tony Gilroy actually did write a relationship in this movie, I feel like.
Greg: And the two of them sold it really well. Here’s why I think the romance works in this movie, when they have kind of a sweet reunion at the end. They don’t kiss, they hug. Which is, I think, actually, what two people who are really glad to see each other would do. Yeah. And it was like, oh my gosh, this is like a real relationship here.
Greg: This isn’t a movie relationship. I thought that was very cool.
Joe: It does. They have really good chemistry together.
Greg: They do, they do. They should make another movie.
Joe: Agreed.
Greg: Joe, are we bad people for loving this movie.
Joe: Of the movie that we have watched, that I consider us bad people for watching and loving.
Greg: Yeah.
Joe: I don’t put this in that category, so I feel neutral about us being I feel like more neutral people for this movie.
Greg: Yeah, I think I think we’re in pretty good shape this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Next question. Does this movie deserve a sequel?
Joe: It deserves. Absolutely. And what I appreciate about this movie is if it’s just a one off, it ends perfectly.
Greg: Totally.
Joe: And there’s ample room for clearly multiple sequels. And I watch every single one of them, but it doesn’t need one.
Greg: No.
Joe: Because it tells the story. It needs to. I think that that’s the piece that I want. Even if you have a sequel to a movie and you know you’re going to make multiple ones, tell us all this story, start to finish for that movie. That way you kind of get the resolution that the audience wants. Yeah. For me, famously, back to the future too is a terrible movie because it’s just like getting you to the third one and so just telling a good story.
Joe: Although I have watched this movie now a million times, I feel like Mission Impossible seven. There are moments it struggles a little bit because it’s trying to set up the eighth. Yeah, but it’s so good on its own.
Greg: Back to the future to just catching strays right now.
Joe: Yeah. Captain. Strays. Yeah. Take that.
Greg: Biff had the sports betting book. Okay. I need you without. Without thinking about it. Okay. Rank the back of the future movies for me.
Joe: One. Three.
Greg: Two. Wow. Interesting.
Joe: That’s the first one. Tells a story, start to finish, and they’re like, hey, we made a lot of money. Yeah, let’s make some more.
Greg: Yep.
Joe: And the third one has a nice resolution to it. And again, I haven’t seen that too. Like we rented it on video in like 1993. So I have no honest idea how well any of these movies hold up. Now.
Greg: I watched all three in a weekend like two years ago with my kids and my youngest son. He he loved two. He’s like, two is the best one.
Joe: Wow, I have questions.
Greg: You should come over and watch it again. Yeah. All right. Next important question. Does it deserve a prequel?
Joe: I would allow a prequel series about Treadstone and Matt Damon’s character to like that mission. So, like, we get to see him being the architect of basically how bad and awful he was as a person before we have this moment.
Greg: Did you know there was a series called Treadstone?
Joe: Yeah, I tried to watch it and it just did not hold up.
Greg: Okay, so it wasn’t the right prequel.
Joe: It wasn’t the right.
Greg: Prequel show. Okay. All right, Joe, next important question. And this is a big one just to get ready emotionally. Okay. Should The Bourne Identity have been nominated for Best Picture of the Oscars in 2003?
Joe: What’s it up against?
Greg: All right. This is back when there were five nominees for Best Picture. Okay, so we’ve got the Lord of the rings, the Pianist, Gangs of New York, the hours, and Chicago. Jesus.
Joe: Wow. That is a that’s that’s a pretty strong.
Greg: But having said that.
Joe: Yeah. Having said all of that, let’s just add it in. I don’t want to take anything away. I’m not being negative this time because I think all of those are great movies.
Greg: Okay.
Joe: But I would add it in. I think it is worth being up there famously. We’ve already done the transporter from 2002. I don’t think it could conscience compared to what it is up against that. I can say that it deserves to be in and among them. That said, I do feel like The Bourne Identity could be the sixth movie.
Joe: It doesn’t win. It’s just a, you know, people probably look back and ridicule it in hindsight, as, you know, a misstep by the Academy, but it deserves it can be there. I would, I would allow it.
Greg: Interesting. I need you to justify why Chicago stays in there. Because I’ve never seen Chicago.
Joe: I have seen it once. I do love the musical. It’s a fun. I love Bob Fosse. So it’s a classic Bob Fosse musical.
Greg: Okay.
Joe: Great performances by Renee Zellweger and Catherine Zeta-Jones. Got a murderer, drove a cast in it. It’s a really well-made movie, and I think that it gets in because it’s got great performances. Cast is up there singing and dancing, and it’s a really solid, well done movie. It’s probably the weakest. Okay, obviously of the five. I wouldn’t put it like forward as like why didn’t it win?
Joe: But I feel like it’s it deserves to be there. It’s an interesting story. It’s well done. So I think I you know, I’m not upset about that one being there like I am Top Gun Maverick.
Greg: Okay. I’m going to take your word for that. I have looked back to our episode on the transporter. I asked you if we should if it should have been nominated, and your response was yes. This should have been nominated.
Joe: Well, there you go. All right, I I’m a contradiction wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma. And just depends on on my mood at that moment. If there are seven. Sure. Let’s have two action movies in there. Because I do like comedies. I do feel like action movies because of their genre. Don’t get the do that. They’re deserved with the Academy.
Greg: Yeah, that’s a good point. We should throw some comedies in there. Get it up to ten. Yeah. All right, well, let’s let me give the listeners our updated list for the nominees for Best Picture from 2003. Okay, we’ve got the Lord of the rings. Gangs of New York, Chicago, the pianist, the hours, the transporter, and the Bourne Identity.
Joe: Absolutely.
Greg: Just an honor to be nominated, I’m sure.
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: All right. Joe. Next important question. One that I don’t have an answer for this week, so I’m hoping you do. How can this movie be fixed? AKA who should be in the remake?
Joe: I am glad you asked this question. I’m not quite sure how this all works together. All I want is Sam Hargrave to direct and I want all the Chris’s. So I want Chris Pine, Chris Hemsworth, and Chris Evans. And it’s a fight to the death. And only one Chris live.
Greg: Chris Pratt, you just thrown out Pratt.
Joe: Chris Pratt can be a supporting character in there. Sure. Throw them in there. Just it’s.
Greg: You’re throwing Chris Pratt a bone.
Joe: Yeah, throwing him a bone to come in, you know? Okay. But that is this is the one, Chris, to rule them all. So. Okay, that’s what we need.
Greg: And it’s called the Bourne Identity.
Joe: Sure.
Joe: The Bourne identities. And then we just have, like, 3 or 4 different Bourne’s that are all going to, like, fight to the death. That’s what I got. I don’t know.
Greg: All of these Chris’s are in like Treadstone.
Joe: Yeah, sure.
Joe: Come with the bad guy. Because he was so good and in the gray man.
Greg: Sure, sure.
Joe: Basically replaying Lloyd. I think Chris Pine is my my favorite to win. I’m a I’m a sucker for Chris Pine, so. Yeah.
Greg: Is he the contractor?
Joe: He’s got to be.
Greg: Can we get a super smart, mundane job job in there. Yeah, yeah.
Joe: He’s a beekeeper who’s also a contractor. Wait.
Greg: Has the professor been in action movie yet? Hold on.
Joe: I don’t know. Let’s. Let’s find out.
Greg: This is definitely a spin off series, the professor.
Joe: I feel like there was, like, Charles Bronson was the professor. Like in the 1970s movie or something like hundred percent. 100%. All right. Joe. Very important. Next question for you. What album is this movie? Oh, this one came to me pretty quick. This is one of my favorite bands. It’s also a band that I feel like was part of a shift in kind of what we were listening to musically.
Joe: This is, to me, the White Stripes. White blood cells. Oh, wow. As the album. Yeah. Because it really does kind of away from the over process overproduce like in sync Britney Spears. Shots fired at Max Martin. Jeez. Yeah I know. Sorry everyone. But really a different like, you know kind of the mistakes were on the tape. But it’s just like there was this visceral rock and roll.
Joe: And so it really to me changed. And it was like I remember the first time and I had a friend, my friend Philip played the white stripe for me. Yeah. It was like, this is basically something. This is your new favorite band. And I was like, oh yeah, right. And then he like played a mix of their stuff.
Joe: And I was like, oh, this actually is yeah, this is different. And so it was just this paradigm shift for me. It was awesome. So yeah. What album is this for you? That’s a really great answer. And I feel like that one applies more the more you even think about it. It applies for more and more reasons. Mine, I was just going for albums that came out that really did kind of change everything for me.
Joe: And one of those records that changed everything for me was The Soft Bulletin by The Flaming Lips. I loved Clouds Taste Metallic. The record before that, I really, really loved it. And The Soft Bulletin was definitely in the same vein produced by Dave Fridmann. Definitely kind of like the same crew just doing something better. Not like a first, like The Bourne Identity is where the White Stripes that White Stripes record was, although I guess they had made some before that.
Joe: That was just the first one we heard. We heard by them, but the soft bulletin for me was like, oh, this is really just music can be different. It’s official. I think The Soft Bulletin is a more successful album than Clouds Taste Metallic, just because it’s, you know, a band that is more fervently mature in its just crazy creativity.
Joe: So for me, a record that really is like a fault line in music for me is The Soft Bulletin by The Flaming Lips. That’s awesome. I think that’s a great album. So yeah, yeah, I guess that means The Bourne Supremacy is Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots. Yeah, probably. But you kind of. Yeah, that kind of checks out. Yeah.
Joe: And this would be elephant for if we’re doing the White Stripes. Right. Yeah. Next one also checks out. Yeah. Yeah I think these both hold up. Yeah. I think it’s time for us to rate this movie. We have been on the fence about exactly what the rating for this movie would be. So let’s let’s get to our scale.
Joe: Sometimes we have great, great movies, but usually we have great bad movies. Good bad movies. Okay. Bad movies, bad, bad movies. Worst case scenario, awful bad movies. How do you rate The Bourne Identity? I can’t quite get the great, great movie. I can make an argument that doesn’t feel like it holds up. I think because of some of the reasons you brought up, there’s some scenes that, you know that crashing through the window scene really is like one a of that, like it is such a that is the that is the tropics trope that we have in this movie.
Joe: I may need to add a new trope. Does a guy crash through the window? Lindsay shooting? Yes. Yeah. It’s like a 13 year old sat down at the. Exactly. It was like the computer for a minute while the writer was out of the room. Yeah, his son comes in and, like. And then it crashes through the machine gun and you’re like, yes.
Joe: And as a 13 year old, I would have been. Absolutely. That’s amazing. Yeah. So to me, it’s a great bad movie. It is really close to a great, great movie. Yeah, it does start something new, but I can’t I can’t get to that point, but I can’t downgrade it either. It’s I so enjoyed watching this movie and I will enjoy watching all of them and watching this one again.
Joe: How do you rate this movie right there with you like one of the greatest great bad movies? Yeah. Agreed. All right. Well, Joe, we did it. Yeah. This is the conversation that needed to happen about The Bourne Identity. You had 24 years, so you’re welcome. America. Enjoy this. If you’re thinking about talking about this movie, don’t. And just put this podcast on in lieu of you talking about this movie.
Joe: That’s what I say. You know, this is the the conversation that needed to happen. We did it for them. It’s just a service. Yeah. You’re welcome. And if you’ve enjoyed this, please find us on all of our social media at Great Bad Movie Show Instagram, or reach out to us at Great Movie Show at gmail.com, or find us at great Bob movies and like us, review us.
Joe: Tell your favorite 100 people about this podcast. If this is your if this is your jam, we expect that 100 other people that are just like you are going to like it too. So, you know, we need your help is what we’re saying. This really does feel like a triple digits scenario. You got to get to 100. Absolutely.
Joe: If you don’t have 100 friends, then really, who are you? I say this famously as someone who has one friend who is doing this podcast for me. So.
Joe: And I let him know about it instantly. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I appreciate that, by the way. Yeah. You’re welcome. Every time this this podcast comes out, I’m just like, Greg, have you seen the new episode? And he’s like, I posted it for you. You’re welcome. And then I say, see it? I lived it. Yeah.
Joe: Big shout out to Sam Cunningham who is our amazing editor. Absolutely. Sam’s the greatest. Oh my gosh, Joe, I just saw the clock. I’m so sorry. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Listen, this has been great. So great. But there’s a guy in this room about 215 pounds, and it seems like he knows how to handle himself. I better go. That tracks I got to go to.
Joe: I’ve got to go climb out a window. And then down four storeys in the middle of a in the middle of the winter, in the snow. So, you know, just to get away, just get some fresh air. You got to just get out for a minute, you know? Yeah, that works for me because, oh my gosh, the guy just crashed through a window in my apartment.
Joe: Shooting a machine gun, luckily, is a horrible shot, but I think I should probably still go. Yeah, you should probably go run out the front door and call the police. I’ve got to run. I’m. I’ve got to go visit my country house. I really hope an ex-girlfriend from like six to however many years ago sure doesn’t show up with some unknown assassin who doesn’t know who he is, and threatened my family with another assassin who’s coming named The professor.
Joe: I really hope that happened. So that makes sense. I’m feeling a little bit tired, so that works for me because I’m going to go take a nap in the ocean face up with my honing beacon. Homing beacon is a honing or homing. I have no idea. Yeah. It’s both. Why do I have to choose? Yeah, but this movie ends in, like, two minutes if he’s face down in the water.
Joe: That was a lucky in that position for him. Yeah, and for me that I’m about to take. Okay. Bye. Yeah. Okay. Goodbye.
Joe: Yeah. Listen, this has been great, but I’ve got to go to the hotel across the street and and count how many people are in there and how many exits there are and how many hotel employees there are, and if there’s any security or anything like that. So. Okay. Okay, I’ll be right back. Okay. That makes sense. While you’re doing that, I think I’m going to take a nap on this park bench just to see how many cops I can beat up while I’m trying to nap on this bench.
Joe: Two guys just came and I knocked him out. I don’t think I’m gonna run away. I think I’m just going to lay back down and see if more guys come, because that was kind of fun. Yeah, I think that’s that’s that’s why I. I’m late. I’ve got to I’ve got to go to the bank, but I’ve, I’ve got to make sure that the bank has a surgeon because that’s the only way I can get my account information is in this scar on my hip.
Joe: So it’s a weird. It’s a long story, but I need to go to the bank and see a surgeon, too. I was going to go to that bank, but the reviews said it was a little painful. So. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no anesthesia. It’s rough. Yeah. That’s not the chip I had in mind when I was getting my credit card.
Joe: Yeah, yeah, that works for me because I just had this great business idea. It’s called Squishy Tires. Yeah.
Joe: They lean to the right or Lloyd, they lean Lloyd, they lean Lloyd as well. Yeah, yeah. So I’m gonna go I’m gonna go put that business plan together and get that going. Yeah. That’s good, that’s good. I’ve got this nagging headache, so I feel like I’ve got to go get shot in a field somewhere and just and just die.
Joe: I think that’s probably the only solution for me to get rid of this kind of. All right, well, that works for me. So, Joe, I will see you soon. Awesome, awesome. See you soon.